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 I don't believe in the Bible

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Narvré
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:15 pm

Dalinian wrote:
Narvré wrote:
To begin with I will say that there are to many contradictions to the almighty ten comandments that I find annoying, whether it be before they where brought down from heaven, or after.

Two I think that Laviticus is full of usless laws that are there to do nothing but bind us from the certain normallities of life.
When people say god is going to save us from Hell, the things that god is Hell, as god is suppose to be all. So in essence, to follow what the bible says it's almost like a guy comes up to you and says, "Unless you run through the hall fulled with lacerated objects, I will bown out you brains with this shotgun" so you do it, because you don't want to die, and the once you do it he says "Lucky I saved you from my shotgun huh?"

Also, if god wishes us to become a part of heaven, why did he just not make us worthy? Why do we have to prove our selves to something that is all knowing? And if we're created in his image, then shoyldn't we already be us there?


Some of the basic reasons.

First) Though I dont know you, [I think] that the reason why you see the Ten Commandments as annoying, is due to the simple fact of misunderstanding God, His word, Jesus Christ, the Old and New Testaments, and that you really love sin. You wouldnt want to depart from your lawlessness because its the broad path which everyone takes....and its the easiest. Jesus has given us The way to righteousness, it is the long and narrow path. He never said it would be easy. Then again, you love being "free" and lawlessness. You hate instruction, which prevents you from growing in wisdom.

Me love sin? Well... sure. Most of the sins in the bible a simply human nature. They're what we're born to do. We want sex, food, and entertainment. Yes I do love being FREE and lawless. You see that as a bad thing? Too bad.
Instruction the prevents growth in wisdom? Damn bet well I hate that. I like owning intellegence, sorry.

Dalinian wrote:
Second) I have yet to read Leviticus, for I have just recently found The Truth, and spotted out the lies. Which made me realize that God IS real, and I MUST get right with God. But ill let you know when I have read that book.

Oh really? I hear this all the time. Christians are always telling me how they use to be 'ignorent' of the 'truth' and all that. Really it's a way of them throwing insults at me, without actually doing so directly. Whether you were always an atheist till rescently or not, it's irrelevent. So why bring it up for any other reason?
The only explination for becoming a christian after being an atheist is because you where stupid and didn't care before hand, where threatend into it, or where stupid before hand anyway, and simply believe what you're told without much questioning. Once you start to question your so-called 'god', you realize there isn't one.

Dalinian wrote:
Third) Your analogy would be relevant, if your beliefs were relevant. We are on an airplane, which is our life. [like you and many others] We are far too focused on whats inside the airplane(which life IS beautiful, and astronomically displays the glory of God) and far too focused on making the trip be "lived to the fullest", for we only live once...right? WRONG! this life is extremely short, compared to what happens after our flesh dies. We are all going to jump out of the plane, its real, and it WILL kill you. There IS going to be judgment. 10 out of 10 people die, you cant help it. Ignoring the FACT of God, doesnt change the reality. you are going to jump out of the plane and die, but God doesnt want that to happen. He DOESNT want us to go to hell. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but be given everlasting life. We have ALL broken God's law. For God is perfect, holy, just, and complete. He WILL give justice rightly. God gave us a parachute.....His son. Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. Now that is the best gift of all, the gift of salvation. That just shows a part of how glorious God is.

If my beliefs were... RELEVANT!? Let me refute this in the the best way i know possible. *Rases middle finger* change this word (unacceptable word) you.
You can say God is the TRUTH till you're blue in the face. It doesn't make it so. You can't threaten me with hell like that, because it's like waving an imaginary knife in my face.

Dalinian wrote:
Fourth) The Kingdom of Heaven is the Kingdom of God. The earth is His footstool, and was made for His glory, as well as Heaven. We are here to see the glory of God. It is hard for postmodernists to grasp this nowadays but....God is The King, we are but dust to Him. We live from His handiwork, we are His handiwork. We derserve every single piece of punishment from God. We have ALL fallen from Him. Since the beginning, since the Garden of Eden. We are born with the nature to sin, with the intent to break God's laws. The fact that we have are a fallen world, means that we have separated from God. We cant prove ourselves of being worthy of heaven, let alone everlasting life without punishment. By "proving" or doing good deeds in order to go to heaven is but a bribe to the Judge, and bribe to God. For the wage of sin is far too big for us to pay. Beyond what a SINFUL man can pay. Jesus is The Way, The Truth, The Life, and no one goes to the father, but through Him.

Deserve all his punishment? It's nice to know how much you hate humanity. I, myself, think of us a little higher, sorry.
I don't the we FELL from anything, because don't think he's THERE. I don't think he 'created' us. You can't say this and expect me to turn around be like "Oh-kay then, hur-huh!"
Further more, he created us this way, he created us so that we would do everything he said was sinful. Why? Because Yahweh, is a prick.

Dalinian wrote:
I am sorry for your confusion my friend. For I was just like you about 4 months ago. This was all but a fantasy to me. Far too unreal more my beleif. Yet there are things that are beyond reality, beyond what science can answer. I hope that you take a peek outside your destructive box, for the truth IS just behind the walls.

I could say the exqact same to you.

Dalinian wrote:
I have question for you. Do you consider yourself to be a good person?

Very much so. My bliefe are irrelevent when it comes to being a good person though.
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:05 am

Lol Narve!

*Well of course, like I said before, you absolutely love your sin, for the devil brings you false feelings. Though his path, in which you are following, is leading you to the lake of fire....well thats what Jesus said.
Though I apologize in regarding that you are "free" for you are not. Yes, we are born with the intent to sin, and you are not free from that. You wouldnt be able to stop sinning if your life depended on it-wait it does. Thats why we need a savior bro. Oh well, thats what you want, and whats so sweet to you, so keep it and good luck.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.(prov1:7)

*indeed I was "stupid" before I had recognized the truth. Though the real word would be...ignorant. You say that I was tricked, scared, and did not question when I decided to repent...nope that is the complete opposite. No one preached to me about anything. No one said that I was a sinner and going to hell. I just opened my eyes, mind, and heart once and for all. Yet many seem to be afraid to do. You see, I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but by it I see everything else. Beautifully done by C.S. Lewis, and praise the Lord that he had seen the truth. In your case, you dont want to take a peek outside your little box. For its like your own getaway. You have everything inside that makes you feel comfortable that have been placed by you and other false teachers. Im sorry. Atheists try to make belief in God seem like something just to help people cope, but it is the exact opposite! They deny God to help them cope with the coming judgment. If you reject the supernatural, do not be surprised when the supernatural rejects you.


*I see that you are 17 brother, but c'mon, grow up! Though that was pretty funny, its a pretty lame way of uh...how YOU would say...refuting. You know im not waiving anything in front of you, especially a finger.lol. You know, anyone can stand on the edge of a cliff 300ft. in the air about to jump, and say that this wont kill them....doesnt change the fact. Bro, im sorry, but, this is where you're wrong. Your on that cliff, about to jump, and you need a parachute, you need a savior.

*oh no man, you got me all wrong. You see, I dont hate anything. Nor do I dislike humanity, I love people. The same way I care about you narve. I mean c'mon. You cant say that we are not sinners. We have all broken God's laws, and we are going to face Him on judgment day. You know that all your fines are payed off...you just need to repent from sin and put your faith in the One who took your punishment. Jesus Christ. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone.

*If you truly seek God with an open mind, and an open heart, you WILL find Him.
God bless brother!
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:11 am

Matt wrote:
miro that is a great quote "I and the Father are one", i totally agree but what jesus was sayin that all of us and the father are one, i and the father are one you and the father are one, its not just jesus who is one with the father. and about following the bible because it is the words of God, see a problem i have is that the bible wasn't written by Jesus or his followers and it was written after jesus died and it wasn't written on paper when the story was first told people would orally pass it on so this leaves a great chance for distortion and what about all those other gospels that weren't accepted inthe bible. i just beleve that there is alot of distortion in the bible and if jesus was here he would change alot of it

No distortion, no broken telephone brother. These are eyewitness statements. Close to 30,000 manuscripts, yet of course you know that. You see, and whats hard for people to believe, is that God is holiness. God would not let a simple man distort His word. But on the other hand. Where did you get that whole "we and God are one etc."? never heard that one before.
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:24 pm

but what about the other gospels why aren't they in the bible they were written by eyewitnesses maybe they had a meeting or discussion about what gospels were allowed in the bible and which ones weren't. i believe the bible is more of man's creation than of God's creation. and i couldn't possilby be able to explain in words why i believe we and God are one but my idea of God is not one you would find in the bible.
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:30 am

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge"

i think believing in that will set you on a path of great ignorance
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:23 pm

Matt wrote:
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge"

i think believing in that will set you on a path of great ignorance

You 'think" is the key word in which your sentence contains brother. Unfortunately the word "ignorance" is very contradicting with that sentence. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.(proverbs1:7)
Yet in some cases in which one is confused with God or His words. This would be most profitable; “ The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.(proverbs9:10)
So you see, the definition of "ignorance" is: the state of which one is ignorant, lacking of knowledge. Clearly those proverbs indicate that the beginning of which one "begins" to gain knowledge, is for one to recognize the Lord. To understand who God is, in which to know that He is one to fear. Honestly the only One to fear.

So if your rejecting God, you are ignoring His omnibenevolence, His holiness, His judgment, for God is perfect. Those who disobey Him, though everyone has, and do not repent, should be scared. Sum it all together, and you have and ignorant Matt.....or a "path of ignorance" in which you are following. Not I my brother.
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:42 am

i dont think you can mix both love and fear. how can you love God but also fear him. maybe this is why you believe in the bible so much because you fear the wrath of God. but it seems to always come down to the bible. so what about those other gospels that aren't in the bible. of course you kno they had a meetin to discuss what books should be in the bible and what ones shouldnt. so again i believe that the bible is more of man's creation than God's.
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:26 am


Can you tell us what are those " other gospels that aren't in the bible " you are talking about ? and give us details.

Please Matt ,write it under the topic " Is bible being distorted? " so that we can reply you there.

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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:52 am

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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:04 am

Matt wrote:
i dont think you can mix both love and fear. how can you love God but also fear him. maybe this is why you believe in the bible so much because you fear the wrath of God. but it seems to always come down to the bible. so what about those other gospels that aren't in the bible. of course you kno they had a meetin to discuss what books should be in the bible and what ones shouldnt. so again i believe that the bible is more of man's creation than God's.

Have you EVER read the Bible? I mean, the whole thing? If not, then thats your first problem. If you were to read His word, you would KNOW that its His word. God is complete. He IS goodness. He IS just. He IS holy. You can love your father, which you can be afraid of, yet love him dearly. You dont want to disobey him, get on his bad side, nor talk back to him. You love him, you respect him. Same thing with God. I hope thats simple enough. Now with the whole "missing gospels" I have no idea what your talking about. I cant really deal with that. Though lets say { IF } that man "decided" on what books to place in the BIble. And { IF } it is Gods words, written by Him through man. He IS holy, and would NOT let a simple men mess with His words. Meaning that there are probably some false teachers, lies, and other distractions to seem that it is "bible material". What { IF } God had that man "decide" not to place them into the bible? Well, personally, I think the bible is perfect. Honestly, Its Jesus thats important. What the Lord said, did, and intention to be here, die here, and ascend form here would be all that we really need to be precise. THE GOSPEL. We have all broken Gods laws. God will serve justice rightly. His Kingdom IS coming. We need a Savior. Oh, and most importantly...there IS One. His name is Jesus Christ. Our Lord. Our Savior. God is wrath-filled. but remember...Hes love-filled too.
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:45 am

you talk about loving him like a father but i kno any good father would never want to send his son or daughter to hell forever no matter what they did. and when discussing the history of the bible and whether or not it is the word of God the most important factor is Constantine.

Constantine was the emperor of the roman empire from 306 to 337, and in the Eastern Orthodox Church they view Constantine as a saint for what he did to Christianity. In 313 Constantine issued the Edict of Milan legalizing christian worship and the emperor would set up the church like the roman empire having churches all over the lands and appointing bishops of his liking to head those churches. I know he wasn't the first pope but you can think of him as that because with his money and power being the emperor of rome he was able to be the sole financer of the church providing money for all these churches and all these positions in the church with him being at the top.

Now at the same time there were debates going around about some of the doctrine of the christian faith and the main topic was Jesus' divinity and whether he was God and so in 325 Constantine set up the council of Nicaea to come up with a consensus in the church. From this council they were able to get the first uniform christian doctrine called the Nicene Creed, go to



to see your creed whether your roman catholic, Eastern Orthodox, etc.

So after this council, by Constantine's approval, they were able to finalize the debate on Jesus' divinity and come up with the doctrine you believe now. And whats very interesting is that in 331, 6 years after the council of Nicaea is when the first bibles were made into print.

So you see it seems that Constantine had more influence over the bible than God did. Constantine turned the Christian faith from a small time religion to the powerhouse it is today. In the roman empire, which is like the United States, he not only made it legal to practice christianity but he made it the major religion of the empire
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:45 pm


Well I not see anything wrong in what you wrote....Concerning Providing money to churches...I not see it a crime !....Besides making it the major religion of the empire....It'snot offending or dectatorian issue....he didn't torture People to be christians !

On the other hand Look at the Dectatorian Empore like Diocletianus and what did he do to anyone who believe in Jesus Christ !

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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:25 pm

Matt wrote:
you talk about loving him like a father but i kno any good father would never want to send his son or daughter to hell forever no matter what they did. and when discussing the history of the bible and whether or not it is the word of God the most important factor is Constantine.

Constantine was the emperor of the roman empire from 306 to 337, and in the Eastern Orthodox Church they view Constantine as a saint for what he did to Christianity. In 313 Constantine issued the Edict of Milan legalizing christian worship and the emperor would set up the church like the roman empire having churches all over the lands and appointing bishops of his liking to head those churches. I know he wasn't the first pope but you can think of him as that because with his money and power being the emperor of rome he was able to be the sole financer of the church providing money for all these churches and all these positions in the church with him being at the top.

Now at the same time there were debates going around about some of the doctrine of the christian faith and the main topic was Jesus' divinity and whether he was God and so in 325 Constantine set up the council of Nicaea to come up with a consensus in the church. From this council they were able to get the first uniform christian doctrine called the Nicene Creed, go to



to see your creed whether your roman catholic, Eastern Orthodox, etc.

So after this council, by Constantine's approval, they were able to finalize the debate on Jesus' divinity and come up with the doctrine you believe now. And whats very interesting is that in 331, 6 years after the council of Nicaea is when the first bibles were made into print.

So you see it seems that Constantine had more influence over the bible than God did. Constantine turned the Christian faith from a small time religion to the powerhouse it is today. In the roman empire, which is like the United States, he not only made it legal to practice christianity but he made it the major religion of the empire
.

A good father will do good things, yet there is not one good father that is man. God is THE only good Father, for He himself IS goodness. Yet a "good" father would punish, would put his child in place if he was out of place. You see, if you were to step on an ant, nothing would happen to you. No punishment. If you were to kill a bum on the streets, well, youd probably go to jail for a long time. Yet if you were to assasinate the president, youd go to prison for the rest of your life, or possibly get the death sentence. Now those are all murders, but whats the difference between those cases??????????????????????

You are comitting the crime against someone different. A higher power. Now if you were to commit a crime against God, well, Hes the highest power. Hes our creator. The King of the universe. So the punishment is very severe...hell. Now he must serve justice rightly. Hes already sent His Son to save us. But if we dont repent and put our faith in the Savior, then hell it is. God DOESNT want to send you to hell. He has to follow His laws, for He wouldnt be a right judge if He didnt do it rightly. So thats why we have a Savior bro. Now would you ever send your son, or daughter (future) to die for anyone? No you wouldnt. Yet God sent His only Son to save US! Now thats a glorious God.

Are you serious? A man doing more than God. Yet, having more "done" for the bible than God? Now thats insane bro. The bible exists for a lot of reasons, gather it all, melt, cast it into a trophy, and on the plate it will read "The Glory of God". From the beginning of creation, to the last few verses of revelations stating; 'for I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: 'If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part in the Book of Life,'
Jesus himself said that He is God. That before Abraham, I AM.

Yet you didnt answer...have you ever read the bible?
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:19 am

Well i went to a catholic school and so i had to read my fair share of the bible and i didn't buy it from the start, none of us took it literally. Like a talking snake, a man getting 2 of every animal in the world gettin them on a boat at the age of 900 lol. And if God is the king of the universe i think he can find a better solution for troble makers than sending his children to hell forever after one life. Ask any loving parent and i guarantee they would never send their children to hell no matter what they did yet God whos suppose to be all goodnees all love would do this it doesnt make sense.

And you have to understand how much influence Constantine had over Christianity. There were two sides with their own gospels one side said Jesus' was a spiritual man but a man nonetheless and one side that said Jesus was God. Then Constantine came in and decided who was right, God didn't decide you can say that God was working in Constantine but you have no proof of that Constantine could of chosen the side that Jesus was God because it gave his religion more power making it the true religion for everyone to follow. Then once the decision was made the bibles were written and that was the beginning of the new christian era. But what if the people who were saying Jesus was a spiritual teacher were the true christians the true followers of Jesus you would never know because you were told that the bible is God's word. You have to agree that Constantine's decision had the biggest influence over the Christian faith. What if he made the wrong one.

Have you ever heard of the Akashic records?
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:45 pm

Dalinian wrote:
Lol Narve!

*Well of course, like I said before, you absolutely love your sin, for the devil brings you false feelings. Though his path, in which you are following, is leading you to the lake of fire....well thats what Jesus said.
Though I apologize in regarding that you are "free" for you are not. Yes, we are born with the intent to sin, and you are not free from that. You wouldnt be able to stop sinning if your life depended on it-wait it does. Thats why we need a savior bro. Oh well, thats what you want, and whats so sweet to you, so keep it and good luck.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.(prov1:7)

*indeed I was "stupid" before I had recognized the truth. Though the real word would be...ignorant. You say that I was tricked, scared, and did not question when I decided to repent...nope that is the complete opposite. No one preached to me about anything. No one said that I was a sinner and going to hell. I just opened my eyes, mind, and heart once and for all. Yet many seem to be afraid to do. You see, I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but by it I see everything else. Beautifully done by C.S. Lewis, and praise the Lord that he had seen the truth. In your case, you dont want to take a peek outside your little box. For its like your own getaway. You have everything inside that makes you feel comfortable that have been placed by you and other false teachers. Im sorry. Atheists try to make belief in God seem like something just to help people cope, but it is the exact opposite! They deny God to help them cope with the coming judgment. If you reject the supernatural, do not be surprised when the supernatural rejects you.


*I see that you are 17 brother, but c'mon, grow up! Though that was pretty funny, its a pretty lame way of uh...how YOU would say...refuting. You know im not waiving anything in front of you, especially a finger.lol. You know, anyone can stand on the edge of a cliff 300ft. in the air about to jump, and say that this wont kill them....doesnt change the fact. Bro, im sorry, but, this is where you're wrong. Your on that cliff, about to jump, and you need a parachute, you need a savior.

*oh no man, you got me all wrong. You see, I dont hate anything. Nor do I dislike humanity, I love people. The same way I care about you narve. I mean c'mon. You cant say that we are not sinners. We have all broken God's laws, and we are going to face Him on judgment day. You know that all your fines are payed off...you just need to repent from sin and put your faith in the One who took your punishment. Jesus Christ. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone.

*If you truly seek God with an open mind, and an open heart, you WILL find Him.
God bless brother!

Please please oh please don't give me that crap that you care about me as a person. You don't even KNOW me. If I died tomorrow it'd make no difference in your life whatsoever. I have people that care about me, but your not one of them. I care about humanity, but I don't haveany deep seeded feelings for people who I don't know's fate.

I love what YOU classify as 'sin'. I love what makes me HUMAN. What sort of idiot punishes someone for being what they are esspecially when they could have made the perfect? Yahweh apparently. But we have no proofand no reason to belive he's there. And no, feeling him deep down and hearing voices in your head is not proof of his existance. I could say the same for a giant floating pink elephant, so why should Yahweh be held to a different standered to my pink elephant?

You God encourages stupidity. He doesn't want us to own ideas or though or any sort of cognative faculties, he just want us to follow the stupid book full of stupid idiotic ideas that would require copiouse amounts of mental gymnastics to somehow believe it all. He's suppose to be perfect, omnipotent, omnipresent, yet he's always messing up with our little insignificant blip of an existance.

There's no objectivity with you people. All you need is the word of your little 'God'. PLEASE just ONCE think about how the world works without a God. I have my morality from how I see a good society is run without a God. I've never broken a law, never been in a fight, never hurt anyone, always do nice things for my friends, I buy them food when they have no money, I talk to them when they need help, I make them laugh when they're down, but because I don't think that Jesus did anything he suppose to have done in the bible, or think that any of the quotes atrihuted to him where originally his, I don't think there's a God, and even if there was he'd be an incompitent moronic ingrate and I think Heaven would be the worst curse ever to befall a human or any kind of sentient being, I'm going to he'll and be constantly tortchured with pointy hot sticks and laughed at by mindless minions of the Devil while he sits upon his migic throne EVIL DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUNNNNNNN. But an idiot kid who simply belives in Jesus and that "HE DIEDED FOR MAH SINZORZ" and that because of this he can sin but still go to Heaven. WHY?

My world makes perfect sense, when you come down from the clouds and can see that there is NO REASON to fill a mans soul with guilt and sorrow for simply being Man, let me know. I believe in what is truely holy a actually worth whorth spending my time on. Humanity. I'm not waisting my time on an imaginary ingrate like Yahweh.


"Non serviam my friends. There are no Gods beyond those made ov human flesh. There is no more devine potential then Human potential and let this be the mightiest of laws!"
- Nergal

"To conquer fear is the beginning of wisdom."
- Bertrand Russell
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Narvré
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:09 pm

Also, I shall add on to this (sorry about the double post but I find the damn edit button).

I rufuted you in this way because you said my beliefs where irrelevent. That's the insult of the highest order. "You're stupid and your ideals about the world and universe mean absolutely nothing, HAHA I WIN." is what you where saying there. I'm not going to react in any other way to this sort of ignorence.

Secondly, I have searched for Jesus and I HAVE searched for God and I HAVE beloved in them. But if I said to myself "I feel this deep in myself and when I pray I feel him speack to me." I'd call myself a loon. Giving yourself feelings and justifying them as God doesn't work because as I've stated a Muslim would say the same thing about Allah and I could say the same thing about my magical giant pink elephant, or the flying spagetti monster, or Satan telling me he was actually God and Yahweh is an imposter and they are all held on the same level of belivability.
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:31 pm

Also another thing (sorry again for the triple post). What exactly IS my little box? Tell me please. I understand everything about your religion, I understand Islam, I understand LeVeyan Satanism better then any that I've met, I understand where you get you're morality from, I understand what you ideals generally are, I understand all of that. But my 'little box' as you've so elequintly put it seems to have no one telling me what's right and what's wrong, it's all subjective, I have to work it all out for myself, I have no crutch to lean back on, no where to run when I need help, and I have to deal with the fact that when I die I have absolutely nothing afterwards. I have no feeling, no emotion no thought no movement no ideas nothing. My very existance as working mind is never there and I HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT. How is that easier?

Dealing with Judgement!? If I ACTUALLY thought was coming do you HONESTLY THINK I would put my fingers in my ears and say it's not!? When the he'll is this thing suppose to happen? Judgement has the same bauring on me as Ragnarok or 2012. I don't think they'll happen simply because there NO REASON TO other then some stupid folk tale ancient text says so. All these religious beliefs have this magical day when all will go "BAM STOP" but none of them ever come. I wonder why? You thin it could be because they're all talking out of their arse? I dunno.

I'm not in some little box where "I'M RIGHT AND EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG" because as I'm a naturally sceptucal I question EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING including myself. Don't try and play of that you know me better then I know myself, because I consistantly second guess myself, and everything and everyone around me.

"I think, therefore I am." is the one thing ANYONE can EVER be 100% sure of. You think therefore you know your mind exists, anything else is up for questioning. Anyone else's existance, the existance of god, the existance of anything other then your own mind.
I don't know you so I'm not trying to psychoanalyse you here, you, are trying to prove to me I'm wrong, not using logic and reason, but using excuses that you seem to be convincing yourself is true about me as a person and how my mind works. You need to change debate tactics.
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:56 pm

Please please oh please don't give me that crap that you care about me as a person. You don't even KNOW me. If I died tomorrow it'd make no difference in your life whatsoever. I have people that care about me, but your not one of them. I care about humanity, but I don't haveany deep seeded feelings for people who I don't know's fate.

You know what, it would make a difference for me IF you died, for I have a very good idea where you will end up once your flesh dies. Knowing that there was a ticket spoken and offered to you, yet you didnt want to take it, believe it. Death is horrible. Maybe if I werent talking to you, I then wouldnt have any knowledge of your presence, having no feelings for you, or your death. But I know your presence brother.

I love what YOU classify as 'sin'. I love what makes me HUMAN. What sort of idiot punishes someone for being what they are esspecially when they could have made the perfect? Yahweh apparently. But we have no proofand no reason to belive he's there. And no, feeling him deep down and hearing voices in your head is not proof of his existance. I could say the same for a giant floating pink elephant, so why should Yahweh be held to a different standered to my pink elephant?

Its not only what I classify, its what God classifies. Yet im not sure of what exact "sins" we mentioned. Yes we are human, but thats a stupid reason to degrade ourselves in being such sinful hearted beings. We're not animals! He punishes those who are rebels against Him. He did make man perfect...Adam and Eve were perfect. Yet they could do whatever they wanted.(you can make someone marry you, but you cant force someone to love you.) We are here to glorify Him, believe it or not. Yet too many are selfish, and dont thak the Giver. I have MORE than enough evidence and proof that God exists. Im here typing right now. Im breathing. I can look outside my window and see His handiwork. We believe in death. Yet thats where it shouldnt end. We should care about where we go when we die, and what will happen. For there IS life after death, and evil people like hitler wont just slip away unpunished. The proof of Jesus existence has SO much evidence, THOUSANDS, including what He did. If you mean to tell me that ALL of that EVIDENCE is false....Oh boy. Well, then I dont have anything else to say, you and I will just go round and round.

You God encourages stupidity. He doesn't want us to own ideas or though or any sort of cognative faculties, he just want us to follow the stupid book full of stupid idiotic ideas that would require copiouse amounts of mental gymnastics to somehow believe it all. He's suppose to be perfect, omnipotent, omnipresent, yet he's always messing up with our little insignificant blip of an existance.

The devil influences others with false feelings, wickedness, arrogance, and ignorance. If God didnt want us to own our thought, or have our own process of thinking, then we wouldnt have that privelage. Why did He give it to us if He doesnt want us to, uh, think badly. Well, just like free will to Adam and Eve. God gave them the privelage to choose right from wrong, but didnt want them to do wrong. He gave us the "right" to own our thoughts, but not to contain bad ones. Brother, it didnt take mathematics, physics, nor any type of athelic ability to reckognize God. Only an open mind. No one preached God to me. I just saw what was behind the curtain, and understood that there is an Intelligent Designer to all this order and comlexity. God didnt ever say "whoops, didnt see that one coming" slapping His palm upon His forehead. WE MESSED UP. HE GAVE US EVERYTHING AND WE TURNED AWAY POINTING OUR EARS TO FALSE TEACHERS.

There's no objectivity with you people. All you need is the word of your little 'God'. PLEASE just ONCE think about how the world works without a God. I have my morality from how I see a good society is run without a God. I've never broken a law, never been in a fight, never hurt anyone, always do nice things for my friends, I buy them food when they have no money, I talk to them when they need help, I make them laugh when they're down, but because I don't think that Jesus did anything he suppose to have done in the bible, or think that any of the quotes atrihuted to him where originally his, I don't think there's a God, and even if there was he'd be an incompitent moronic ingrate and I think Heaven would be the worst curse ever to befall a human or any kind of sentient being, I'm going to he'll and be constantly tortchured with pointy hot sticks and laughed at by mindless minions of the Devil while he sits upon his migic throne EVIL DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUNNNNNNN. But an idiot kid who simply belives in Jesus and that "HE DIEDED FOR MAH SINZORZ" and that because of this he can sin but still go to Heaven. WHY?

WOW! You people?...uh huh. Yes, all we need is Gods words, for He never changes, He is truth. More reasons to rely on Him. The world doesn work without God, it never has. If He wanted to, He could crush us all, but He promised He wouldnt, but He'll serve justice in the second coming of Christ. A world run by atheism, is a world without morals. We cant run anything as big as even America without having an objective source of rules, or morals. Doing so with a subjective descision will create chaos. Hey hitler thought that what he was doing was good. Sadly he was an atheist, and subjective decisions he made. We all have a concience, and some of the "good" morals you learned came from the law that is coded within our concience. Id like to say thank you for helping those in need brother. Thats good to know. Man if I had a million dollars; Id buy a house, and a car. Carefully and sufficiently distributing the rest to those who NEED it. Though you havent dont things like that to me narve, I thank you for doing so to others. Im sorry to see what you think about God, but hey, its nor the first time. Though you dont understand that heaven IS great. It will be amazing. Something that no being can wrap his finite mind around this infinite thing. Its going to be great thats all I can say. Indeed better than hell.
You see, we have all sinned. We can never be perfect, for a simple being is NOT CAPABLE. This is our nature, passed down from Adam. We are born with the intent to sin. What you can do is hate sin. Be done with your sinful ways, repent(want to change) and put your faith in Jesus. For He is the only one who can give us new desires, guide us through temptation(though it will ALWAYS be there), and replace our hearts of stone with a heart of flesh. Yes, it a long war against sin, and the devil will deploy heavier firepower on those who rebel against him and his evil ways. Why are we forgiven from our sins? Our records cleansed, and forgotten. Because Jesus payed our fines. God so loved the world that He GAVE His only Son. He loves us. He will serve justice, for He wouldnt be right, if He didnt serve justice rightly. And like I had said before regarding something finite to understand something infinite. It cant be done. God is infinite, complete, and perfect. Hes all loving, etc, etc, and all just. Hes glorious, Hes great. He gave His Son to save us. Giving us a "get out of jail free" card. Justice MUST be done. I know...harsh, but hey, it doesnt need to be that way. There is a way out.

My world makes perfect sense, when you come down from the clouds and can see that there is NO REASON to fill a mans soul with guilt and sorrow for simply being Man, let me know. I believe in what is truely holy a actually worth whorth spending my time on. Humanity. I'm not waisting my time on an imaginary ingrate like Yahweh.

It makes perfect sense to you? Well, cant do anything about that lol. You can show an atheist evidence, but you cant get him to think. Nor change, though that is not a position for a human being to do.


"Non serviam my friends. There are no Gods beyond those made ov human flesh. There is no more devine potential then Human potential and let this be the mightiest of laws!"
- Nergal

very pride-filled and selfish. What Nergal are you talking about? For the one I know of is an idol regarding the sun.

"To conquer fear is the beginning of wisdom."
- Bertrand Russell[/quote]

"in view of such harmony in the cosmos which i, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, ther are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they wuote me for the support of such views." Albert Eintsein
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PostSubject: sorry about the long reply. i dont know how to "quote" something.   Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:10 pm

Narvré wrote:
Also, I shall add on to this (sorry about the double post but I find the damn edit button).

I rufuted you in this way because you said my beliefs where irrelevent. That's the insult of the highest order. "You're stupid and your ideals about the world and universe mean absolutely nothing, HAHA I WIN." is what you where saying there. I'm not going to react in any other way to this sort of ignorence.

*I understand that you are mad at my past statement about you beliefs. I apologize. Um...that wasnt what I was saying. Please dont read between the lines like that. For you can create anything out of that method. It has a fancy name for it, but all that is fancy about it is the fiction of the result. EXAMPLE: So you mean to tell me that you like my read hat? Though I aplogoze for seeming to mean that.

Secondly, I have searched for Jesus and I HAVE searched for God and I HAVE beloved in them. But if I said to myself "I feel this deep in myself and when I pray I feel him speack to me." I'd call myself a loon. Giving yourself feelings and justifying them as God doesn't work because as I've stated a Muslim would say the same thing about Allah and I could say the same thing about my magical giant pink elephant, or the flying spagetti monster, or Satan telling me he was actually God and Yahweh is an imposter and they are all held on the same level of belivability.

*I would call myself a loon too. There are many people like that out there, its a distraction. Yet I can tell you that if you REALLY had an open heart. That you REALLY had an open mind, and that you REALLY WANTED to find God....we wouldnt be discussing these things right now. You can refute and deny all you want. Its just like when a person says that they "used" to be a christian. LOL! A TRUE christian does not turn away from God. No, Gods existence is not on the same level of beliveability. Though I doubt that you would agree, as it shows above. Your spagetti monster is obviousely a cartoon character. The beliefs in the muslim religion is ver false, and very violent, if you really knew.
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:35 pm

Narvré wrote:
Also another thing (sorry again for the triple post). What exactly IS my little box? Tell me please. I understand everything about your religion, I understand Islam, I understand LeVeyan Satanism better then any that I've met, I understand where you get you're morality from, I understand what you ideals generally are, I understand all of that. But my 'little box' as you've so elequintly put it seems to have no one telling me what's right and what's wrong, it's all subjective, I have to work it all out for myself, I have no crutch to lean back on, no where to run when I need help, and I have to deal with the fact that when I die I have absolutely nothing afterwards. I have no feeling, no emotion no thought no movement no ideas nothing. My very existance as working mind is never there and I HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT. How is that easier?

*The box in which I tie with your situation is this; Your an atheist(please let me know if im wrong about that), you believe in false teachers(which has helped you believe in what you believe), SOME of the "knowledge" you have is from something/somebody that relate to what you believe. Your box is you worldview. Anti-God, anti-heaven, anti-hell, anti-judgment, anti-Jesus, and etc. The things you know which you have collected over the years, are "cherished". Anything that threatens what you cherish is an abomonation to you and your beliefs. You rebuke those things. For ignoring those things make you comfortable. So comfortable that you wont even peek outside of it. I didnt want to explain, for I dont want to argue anymore. Though you asked. Nor do I want you to be angry any further. This conversation is just going in circles, and has fallen apart.

Dealing with Judgement!? If I ACTUALLY thought was coming do you HONESTLY THINK I would put my fingers in my ears and say it's not!? When the he'll is this thing suppose to happen? Judgement has the same bauring on me as Ragnarok or 2012. I don't think they'll happen simply because there NO REASON TO other then some stupid folk tale ancient text says so. All these religious beliefs have this magical day when all will go "BAM STOP" but none of them ever come. I wonder why? You thin it could be because they're all talking out of their arse? I dunno.

*Thats the things, you dont believe in for if you considered it to be. That means that you would have to begin to fear hell. Realize that you will be held accountable for breaking Gods laws. Most importantly to you, change your ways. The things you love doing. I dont know about that whole 2012 thing. We will never know when the end of age will be. Only the Father knows. Nor is it important, or our place to find out. You only assume truths as speaking nonsense because some things are pretty scary. Many profecies of the bible have been fulfilled, as well as nowadays. So I wouldnt doubt it. I dont.

I'm not in some little box where "I'M RIGHT AND EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG" because as I'm a naturally sceptucal I question EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING including myself. Don't try and play of that you know me better then I know myself, because I consistantly second guess myself, and everything and everyone around me.

*Many do, including myself. I think its healthy.

"I think, therefore I am." is the one thing ANYONE can EVER be 100% sure of. You think therefore you know your mind exists, anything else is up for questioning. Anyone else's existance, the existance of god, the existance of anything other then your own mind.
I don't know you so I'm not trying to psychoanalyse you here, you, are trying to prove to me I'm wrong, not using logic and reason, but using excuses that you seem to be convincing yourself is true about me as a person and how my mind works. You need to change debate tactics.

*Oh so does this mean you like my blue hat instead? Wait wait, does this finally conclude that you dont agree that your beliefs are relevant? I dont have debate tactics. I dont need them. Thats rediculous.

SO! I am very suprised with the volume of stuff you had to write. I apologize for making you angry towards me, it happens. God bless brother.
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:49 pm

Quote :
You know what, it would make a difference for me IF you died, for I have a very good idea where you will end up once your flesh dies. Knowing that there was a ticket spoken and offered to you, yet you didnt want to take it, believe it. Death is horrible. Maybe if I werent talking to you, I then wouldnt have any knowledge of your presence, having no feelings for you, or your death. But I know your presence brother.


Thank you for waving the imaginary knife and using fear tactics. I love how much your God despises us enough to send us to Hell for an eternity for our finite little 'test'.

Quote :
Its not only what I classify, its what God classifies. Yet im not sure of what exact "sins" we mentioned. Yes we are human, but thats a stupid reason to degrade ourselves in being such sinful hearted beings. We're not animals! He punishes those who are rebels against Him. He did make man perfect...Adam and Eve were perfect. Yet they could do whatever they wanted.(you can make someone marry you, but you cant force someone to love you.) We are here to glorify Him, believe it or not. Yet too many are selfish, and dont thak the Giver. I have MORE than enough evidence and proof that God exists. Im here typing right now. Im breathing. I can look outside my window and see His handiwork. We believe in death. Yet thats where it shouldnt end. We should care about where we go when we die, and what will happen. For there IS life after death, and evil people like hitler wont just slip away unpunished. The proof of Jesus existence has SO much evidence, THOUSANDS, including what He did. If you mean to tell me that ALL of that EVIDENCE is false....Oh boy. Well, then I dont have anything else to say, you and I will just go round and round.

Here's where the Narcessism comes out in the idea of religion...
"I cannot believe that person as wonderful as me has a finite time here, I cannot believe that somone as wonderful and perfect as me come along by chance! I 'm just so wonderful and amazing and everything around me and wow!"
...I can.
Namwe for me one piece of evidence that has not been thoroughly refuted and cannot be explained by natural means. Please, I'm waiting.

Quote :

The devil influences others with false feelings, wickedness, arrogance, and ignorance. If God didnt want us to own our thought, or have our own process of thinking, then we wouldnt have that privelage. Why did He give it to us if He doesnt want us to, uh, think badly. Well, just like free will to Adam and Eve. God gave them the privelage to choose right from wrong, but didnt want them to do wrong. He gave us the "right" to own our thoughts, but not to contain bad ones. Brother, it didnt take mathematics, physics, nor any type of athelic ability to reckognize God. Only an open mind. No one preached God to me. I just saw what was behind the curtain, and understood that there is an Intelligent Designer to all this order and comlexity. God didnt ever say "whoops, didnt see that one coming" slapping His palm upon His forehead. WE MESSED UP. HE GAVE US EVERYTHING AND WE TURNED AWAY POINTING OUR EARS TO FALSE TEACHERS.


Or is could be delusional and that your all insane? *shrug*(It's not me calling you insane by the way, but it's a suggestion)
Okay then... he's the master of the universe... he knows all, sees all, hears all, can do all... He would have known that in the form that he created us we would mess up.... But he did it anyway? You know why? Because he's a prick. Who but your God is narcessistic enough to create something for the simple purpose of making him feel good? The Master of the universe and all doer could have surely done a better job then us.

Quote :
WOW! You people?...uh huh. Yes, all we need is Gods words, for He never changes, He is truth. More reasons to rely on Him. The world doesn work without God, it never has. If He wanted to, He could crush us all, but He promised He wouldnt, but He'll serve justice in the second coming of Christ. A world run by atheism, is a world without morals. We cant run anything as big as even America without having an objective source of rules, or morals. Doing so with a subjective descision will create chaos. Hey hitler thought that what he was doing was good. Sadly he was an atheist, and subjective decisions he made. We all have a concience, and some of the "good" morals you learned came from the law that is coded within our concience. Id like to say thank you for helping those in need brother. Thats good to know. Man if I had a million dollars; Id buy a house, and a car. Carefully and sufficiently distributing the rest to those who NEED it. Though you havent dont things like that to me narve, I thank you for doing so to others. Im sorry to see what you think about God, but hey, its nor the first time. Though you dont understand that heaven IS great. It will be amazing. Something that no being can wrap his finite mind around this infinite thing. Its going to be great thats all I can say. Indeed better than hell.
You see, we have all sinned. We can never be perfect, for a simple being is NOT CAPABLE. This is our nature, passed down from Adam. We are born with the intent to sin. What you can do is hate sin. Be done with your sinful ways, repent(want to change) and put your faith in Jesus. For He is the only one who can give us new desires, guide us through temptation(though it will ALWAYS be there), and replace our hearts of stone with a heart of flesh. Yes, it a long war against sin, and the devil will deploy heavier firepower on those who rebel against him and his evil ways. Why are we forgiven from our sins? Our records cleansed, and forgotten. Because Jesus payed our fines. God so loved the world that He GAVE His only Son. He loves us. He will serve justice, for He wouldnt be right, if He didnt serve justice rightly. And like I had said before regarding something finite to understand something infinite. It cant be done. God is infinite, complete, and perfect. Hes all loving, etc, etc, and all just. Hes glorious, Hes great. He gave His Son to save us. Giving us a "get out of jail free" card. Justice MUST be done. I know...harsh, but hey, it doesnt need to be that way. There is a way out.


A perfect being should be able to make something perfect, as he is perfect and infalable. Yet Satan did something that he couldn't stop... odd.

Thank you for using the old "YOU HAVE NO MORAL GUIDLINES, YOU WILL BECOME HITLER."
I have moral guidlines. And I AM an atheist.
Okay, we can't understand him.... Why would we just assume that? Because we somehow know he's there, but because we can't prove him he automastically becomes incomprehensable instead of just not there? Why? I sdon't understand your logic.

Why is Jesus the only one who counts? Millions and millions of other people have suffered far worse deaths and lives then him. Why does only his count towards us?

Also, I wont say there is no God. But I won't say there is. Truth is I don't know. Perhaops there is one. But I think the chances of Yahweh being the truth is just as likely as me claiming the there is an invisible flying giant pink elephant in the sky. And I'm not going to try and find the the ball under the millions and millions of cups that could hold it underniethe. Chances are, you're just as Hellbound as I am. If there is one that is.

He is stupid, he is illogical, and he is unfare. Plenty of other people have died worse then his son has, and plenty more will.

You may see his as all just. I see him as an unjust prick. You can debate that as much as you like, but the problem with doing that is that you're still assuming he exists and are arguing from a Christian standpoint. Try and objectify then argue the position of God from there. It becomes a lot better way of arguing his existance, and is far more structured and more logically stable, as well as a refutable thing using logic.

Quote :
It makes perfect sense to you? Well, cant do anything about that lol. You can show an atheist evidence, but you cant get him to think. Nor change, though that is not a position for a human being to do.

Show me proper evidence. Show me something that I will find inrtefutable. Infalable. Go one. Try it. Please, I would love to hear it. Using the fact that you're here isn't anymore evidence for God then it is for Evelution, and the planets creation through natural means.

Quote :
very pride-filled and selfish. What Nergal are you talking about? For the one I know of is an idol regarding the sun.

Yes, yes it is. For I am am pridfilled and i am selfish. For i am human, and proud of it. I will not riddle my soul with the guilt wrought on by an idiodic, selfish, pridfilled, angry, imaginary, ingrate of a creator.
Nergal is a Musician, a historian, and a very wise man. Nargal is his stage name.

Quote :
"in view of such harmony in the cosmos which i, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, ther are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they wuote me for the support of such views." Albert Eintsein
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:49 pm

And? Because Albert Einstien says this means what exactly? Means perhaps there is a god and perhaps there isn't? So? Perhaps he does exisist. I don't care, because the chances of such are so small they're not worth worrieing about. Same with Allah , the Flying Spagetti Monster etc.

Quote :
I understand that you are mad at my past statement about you beliefs. I apologize. Um...that wasnt what I was saying. Please dont read between the lines like that. For you can create anything out of that method. It has a fancy name for it, but all that is fancy about it is the fiction of the result. EXAMPLE: So you mean to tell me that you like my read hat? Though I aplogoze for seeming to mean that.

Nothing speaks more for reading inbetween the lines then picking and chooseing what parts of the bible are literal and what parts are simbolic does it?

If my beliefs are irrelevent then yours are to. Why are mine any less relevent then yours? Hmmmmm?

Quote :
*I would call myself a loon too. There are many people like that out there, its a distraction. Yet I can tell you that if you REALLY had an open heart. That you REALLY had an open mind, and that you REALLY WANTED to find God....we wouldnt be discussing these things right now. You can refute and deny all you want. Its just like when a person says that they "used" to be a christian. LOL! A TRUE christian does not turn away from God. No, Gods existence is not on the same level of beliveability. Though I doubt that you would agree, as it shows above. Your spagetti monster is obviousely a cartoon character. The beliefs in the muslim religion is ver false, and very violent, if you really knew.

I think the muslim beliefs are only as fulse as yours are. Vilence being wrong is RELETIVE. The Qor'an is used for violence, yeah, but look at all the violence in history wrought but the Holy Bible. What makes you more relevent then them? Nothing. Simply because you use the idea that violence is wrong and ask for an emotional response. I subjectify things and relise that morality is reletive. Just because your interpritation on what God wants is different to a Muslims doesn't meanb that you're anymore correct.
The Flying Spagetti Monster is part of Patafarianism. It is a parody religion, but is just as relevent as any other. The only difference is, people use it as a joke. But when you can proove that The Flying Spagetti Monster didn't create us and Yahweh did, let me know.

Quote :
The box in which I tie with your situation is this; Your an atheist(please let me know if im wrong about that), you believe in false teachers(which has helped you believe in what you believe), SOME of the "knowledge" you have is from something/somebody that relate to what you believe. Your box is you worldview. Anti-God, anti-heaven, anti-hell, anti-judgment, anti-Jesus, and etc. The things you know which you have collected over the years, are "cherished". Anything that threatens what you cherish is an abomonation to you and your beliefs. You rebuke those things. For ignoring those things make you comfortable. So comfortable that you wont even peek outside of it. I didnt want to explain, for I dont want to argue anymore. Though you asked. Nor do I want you to be angry any further. This conversation is just going in circles, and has fallen apart.

I don't follow any 'teachings'. I beleive what makes sense to me. What I have come up with. They are not teachings, and I do not force them on anyone else nor threaten them with an enternity in some place for simply not following me, because i understand it is reletive. Everything is subjective and cannot be put over all of humanity to follow simply because you say. I will however, say what i think is correct, why i think it's correct, and what i think the social outcomes of it will be down the road if they're followed or not, and why I think they should be givin consideration. But unlike Yahweh, i do believe in the freedom of the human race to live by what thewy think is correct, instead of forcing them to beleive something or I'll punish them for eternity.

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Thats the things, you dont believe in for if you considered it to be. That means that you would have to begin to fear hell. Realize that you will be held accountable for breaking Gods laws. Most importantly to you, change your ways. The things you love doing. I dont know about that whole 2012 thing. We will never know when the end of age will be. Only the Father knows. Nor is it important, or our place to find out. You only assume truths as speaking nonsense because some things are pretty scary. Many profecies of the bible have been fulfilled, as well as nowadays. So I wouldnt doubt it. I dont.

I think the idea of my conginitive faculties being completely destoyed and no longer being able to think for myself as more scary then the idea of being torchured for eternity. Besides, all the sort of perople I like to hang out with will be going to hell anyway. So i think the parties down stares.
Besides, aren't you Christians the ones who always say the Devil is desceving us? Couldn't, I dunno, Satan come to earth in the form of a Man, perform a bunch of tricks, tell people that he was the Son of God, pretend to die for us then have people follow him to hell for the next few thousand years? *shrug*
2012 ia the year the Mayan calader finishes, and may be THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT. But I feeeeell fiiiiiinne. Because it's just as likely as Ragnarok or Judgement Day is.

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Many do, including myself. I think its healthy.
then why don't you listen to half the stuff i say and simply answer it unde3r the assumption that i;m automatically wrong, and that God exists automatically.

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Oh so does this mean you like my blue hat instead? Wait wait, does this finally conclude that you dont agree that your beliefs are relevant? I dont have debate tactics. I dont need them. Thats rediculous.

Why are you contigent on saying that anything i say is not relevent and that I'm automatically wrong simply because you say?

You are debating with me right now. You are useing debate tactics. How did what you just say even make sense?

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SO! I am very suprised with the volume of stuff you had to write. I apologize for making you angry towards me, it happens. God bless brother.

Angry? When did i say i was angry? I rose my middle finger at you once because you offended me, but I'm not angry. I am having the time of my life with this. It's one of my favorite things to do.

The conversation has not fallen apart. It has simply gone in cfircles, because everytime i refute something you state, you restae it in a different wording.
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Narvré
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:21 pm

I would like to make one little addendham, We ARE ANIMALS. No sometimes worse sometimes better then our more premitive counter parts and certainly the most ferociouse of all animals.
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Dalinian
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PostSubject: Re: I don't believe in the Bible   Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:19 pm

Thank you for waving the imaginary knife and using fear tactics. I love how much your God despises us enough to send us to Hell for an eternity for our finite little 'test'.

*By putting us into existence having us practically walk into everlasting torture and misery, would of displayed Him as One who despises us. Though He didnt. He gave us a way out of our rebellious ways.

Here's where the Narcessism comes out in the idea of religion...
"I cannot believe that person as wonderful as me has a finite time here, I cannot believe that somone as wonderful and perfect as me come along by chance! I 'm just so wonderful and amazing and everything around me and wow!"
...I can.

*what? That regards your narcissism. Not "religion's".

Namwe for me one piece of evidence that has not been thoroughly refuted and cannot be explained by natural means. Please, I'm waiting.

*Everything! DNA, our eyes, a conscience, the giraffe, order, laws of nature, dude are you kidding me? Its like you saying that the sun isnt really there. Yes, its THAT crazy. You really believe in macro evolution?LOL!

Or is could be delusional and that your all insane? *shrug*(It's not me calling you insane by the way, but it's a suggestion)
Okay then... he's the master of the universe... he knows all, sees all, hears all, can do all... He would have known that in the form that he created us we would mess up.... But he did it anyway? You know why? Because he's a prick. Who but your God is narcessistic enough to create something for the simple purpose of making him feel good? The Master of the universe and all doer could have surely done a better job then us.

*Indeed He knew that we would mess up. He LET us mess up.(free will...to an extent) He did it so that He will be glorified. There are bad things in this world so that we wake up and see what good there is. Which is far more than what is bad. To wake us up from our arrogance. He IS the King, and He does OWN us. He can do whatever He wants. We are from His hands, and we are here to glorify Him. If there wasnt anything bad in the present or when we die, then there wouldnt be anything to save us from. The cosmos shows His power and glory. The sun. Humans, how intelligent, and the rest of the complexity of the universe displays Gods glory. Glory! He IS the King. He gave us EVERYTHING! EVERYTHING was designed by an intelligent Designer.


A perfect being should be able to make something perfect, as he is perfect and infalable. Yet Satan did something that he couldn't stop... odd.

*Everything WAS perfect. We disobeyed Him, and He left His hands away from us. Adam and Eve had freedom to choose right from wrong. To obey, or disobey. Satan deceived them, knowing they had free-will, they disobeyed God. You can make someone marry you, but you cant make them love you...remember that one.

Thank you for using the old "YOU HAVE NO MORAL GUIDLINES, YOU WILL BECOME HITLER."
I have moral guidlines. And I AM an atheist.
Okay, we can't understand him.... Why would we just assume that? Because we somehow know he's there, but because we can't prove him he automastically becomes incomprehensable instead of just not there? Why? I sdon't understand your logic.

*NO, atheism is a very unstable, unpredictable, and subjective religion. There is thousands of manuscripts recording His existence, His acts, and His Son. Its been boldly described, in detail, that God exists. Some of YOUR logic is this; You believe that there was NOTHING and NOTHING happened into NOTHING, and then NOTHING magically exploded for no reason, creating EVERYTHING and then a bunch of EVERYTHING magically rearranged itself for NO REASON WHATSOEVER into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Which over billions of years(which has been refuted many many times, carbon-14 dating is not as concrete as many believe it to be), from the single-cell organism that was born from the chemical soup, has now became something so complex as a human. Then having everyone in the beginning believing, knowing, and trusting God. Makes perfect sense.

Why is Jesus the only one who counts? Millions and millions of other people have suffered far worse deaths and lives then him. Why does only his count towards us?

*He was the perfect lamb for the sacrifice for our sins. No, to be crucified is one of THE most horrific, painful, and extended ways to kill someone. Thats one thing. Second, God bruised His Son. Jesus wasnt only suffering the crucifixion, but Gods wrath. Indeed it was THE WORST DEATH AND SUFFERING. He was an unblemished lamb, sacrificed FOR THE WAGE OF SIN. LOVE BROTHER, LOVE! No one would die for anyone they didnt know. Especially if there was nothing to die FOR. He died so that can avoid perishing in hell for breaking the Judges laws.

Also, I wont say there is no God. But I won't say there is. Truth is I don't know. Perhaops there is one. But I think the chances of Yahweh being the truth is just as likely as me claiming the there is an invisible flying giant pink elephant in the sky. And I'm not going to try and find the the ball under the millions and millions of cups that could hold it underniethe. Chances are, you're just as Hellbound as I am. If there is one that is.

*Yes im a sinner, everyone is. Though the difference between you and I in that situation is....I am a forgiven sinner. Jesus promised bro. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus ALONE.

He is stupid, he is illogical, and he is unfare. Plenty of other people have died worse then his son has, and plenty more will.

*No! No one has suffered as much as our Savior. Many have suffered badly, but not as bad as Him.

You may see his as all just. I see him as an unjust prick. You can debate that as much as you like, but the problem with doing that is that you're still assuming he exists and are arguing from a Christian standpoint. Try and objectify then argue the position of God from there. It becomes a lot better way of arguing his existance, and is far more structured and more logically stable, as well as a refutable thing using logic.

*He would be unjust, IF He didnt serve justice rightly. Yet you are arguing from an atheistic point of veiw. The thing is.....God doesnt believe in atheists believe it or not. I stick by The Doctrine. For He is The Truth, The Way, and The Life. Thats all there is to it.


Show me proper evidence. Show me something that I will find inrtefutable. Infalable. Go one. Try it. Please, I would love to hear it. Using the fact that you're here isn't anymore evidence for God then it is for Evelution, and the planets creation through natural means.

*Okay, heres one.(let me know if you want another) Everything! Existence itself. How it became existence. Explain to me HOW and WHY this happened.

Yes, yes it is. For I am am pridfilled and i am selfish. For i am human, and proud of it. I will not riddle my soul with the guilt wrought on by an idiodic, selfish, pridfilled, angry, imaginary, ingrate of a creator.
Nergal is a Musician, a historian, and a very wise man. Nargal is his stage name.

*I was referring to nergal. Thats very knowledgable to get that kind of "knowledge" from a guy like him.
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PostSubject: and here we go again.   Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:53 pm

Narvré wrote:
And? Because Albert Einstien says this means what exactly? Means perhaps there is a god and perhaps there isn't? So? Perhaps he does exisist. I don't care, because the chances of such are so small they're not worth worrieing about. Same with Allah , the Flying Spagetti Monster etc.

*it means what it means literally. As a matter of fact, his name is Greg, and he doesnt like to be called the flying spaghetti monster. I had a bbq with him yesterday.


Nothing speaks more for reading inbetween the lines then picking and chooseing what parts of the bible are literal and what parts are simbolic does it?

*Maybe thats how you read. The only part of the bible that I think would use figurative reading is Revelations. The Author meant something in His scriptures, an intention, a message. By the way, which hat did you say you wanted to borrow?

If my beliefs are irrelevent then yours are to. Why are mine any less relevent then yours? Hmmmmm?

*I really dont know what you true beliefs are. I do konw that what you are stating is irrelevant. Though in your eyes, very relevant. Saying that you "believe" in "a" god, but hes just a figment of your imagination. Your subjective god. Your spaghetti monster(greg).


I think the muslim beliefs are only as fulse as yours are. Vilence being wrong is RELETIVE. The Qor'an is used for violence, yeah, but look at all the violence in history wrought but the Holy Bible. What makes you more relevent then them? Nothing. Simply because you use the idea that violence is wrong and ask for an emotional response. I subjectify things and relise that morality is reletive. Just because your interpritation on what God wants is different to a Muslims doesn't meanb that you're anymore correct.
The Flying Spagetti Monster is part of Patafarianism. It is a parody religion, but is just as relevent as any other. The only difference is, people use it as a joke. But when you can proove that The Flying Spagetti Monster didn't create us and Yahweh did, let me know.

*The violence in that book is regarding killing one who gets in your way with your beliefs. The bible's about wars, and taking over territory. There IS a truth. For Jesus said so. It is Him. The bible was way before that violent book. Heres proof that God created the heavens and the earth......Genisis 1:1. Go ahead, read it a couple times. Give it a whirl. It is VERY clear.


I don't follow any 'teachings'. I beleive what makes sense to me. What I have come up with. They are not teachings, and I do not force them on anyone else nor threaten them with an enternity in some place for simply not following me, because i understand it is reletive. Everything is subjective and cannot be put over all of humanity to follow simply because you say. I will however, say what i think is correct, why i think it's correct, and what i think the social outcomes of it will be down the road if they're followed or not, and why I think they should be givin consideration. But unlike Yahweh, i do believe in the freedom of the human race to live by what thewy think is correct, instead of forcing them to beleive something or I'll punish them for eternity.

*THERE IS NO FORCE INVOLVED! Its simply discussed. HELLO!


I think the idea of my conginitive faculties being completely destoyed and no longer being able to think for myself as more scary then the idea of being torchured for eternity. Besides, all the sort of perople I like to hang out with will be going to hell anyway. So i think the parties down stares.
Besides, aren't you Christians the ones who always say the Devil is desceving us? Couldn't, I dunno, Satan come to earth in the form of a Man, perform a bunch of tricks, tell people that he was the Son of God, pretend to die for us then have people follow him to hell for the next few thousand years? *shrug*
2012 ia the year the Mayan calader finishes, and may be THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT. But I feeeeell fiiiiiinne. Because it's just as likely as Ragnarok or Judgement Day is.

*Oh dude, it no party. Its where there will be weeping, gnashing of teeth, and where the worm never dies. Jesus said, “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand."(matt12:15, Luke11:17) If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.(mark3:24)


then why don't you listen to half the stuff i say and simply answer it unde3r the assumption that i;m automatically wrong, and that God exists automatically.

*I used to listen to that side, i should say. Until I recognized the truth.


Why are you contigent on saying that anything i say is not relevent and that I'm automatically wrong simply because you say?

*just as much as you are. I disagree with you.

You are debating with me right now. You are useing debate tactics. How did what you just say even make sense?

*Yes I am debating, but I dont need to learn special methods in order to do so. All you need is knowledge and in this case typing skills.



The conversation has not fallen apart. It has simply gone in cfircles, because everytime i refute something you state, you restae it in a different wording.

*For you are asking the same thing with some variety(though not all of it) and it will always have one answer.
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I don't believe in the Bible
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