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The Philosopher
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PostSubject: The Concept of Sin   Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:49 pm


The Concept of Sin

Why do we need a Salvation or a Saviour?

Nowadays The biblical teaching of original sin is dismissed for the more palatable "original goodness."...what a pity !.
Many people avoid this topic. Some deny that there is sin or a God or some absolute values. Others believe that our values must evolve with the demands of the culture. This makes the Bible unpopular, because the Bible does describe this disease called sin that isolates us from God.

But what is the definition of sin in the Bible?
If you examine the issue, there are at least three definitions. The basis of all of these is that sin is a state of existence that separates us from God.

Lawless (Separation from the Father): Sin is breaking the laws of God.
Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. (1 John 3: 4)
Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin. (James 4:17 )

If you have access to the law, and then decide to pick and choose what you think you should obey, then this is sin

Unbelief (Separation from the Son). Sin is not believing in Jesus Christ.

Stubbornness (Separation from the Holy Spirit). For rebellion is as the sin of divination and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. (1 Samuel 15: 23)

Origin and Consequences


Sin began in the Garden of Eden when our parents disobeyed God. As a consequence, they were separated from God. He no longer met face to face with them. The separation resulted in specific physical changes.

Death. The whole planet began to die.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6: 23)

Curse (Wrath). The planet was cursed. On our way to death the planet would suffer physical, spiritual and mental impairments that would lead to war, famine, drought and disease.

Contamination. This fatal decision by Adam and Eve was passed on to their children and the creation like a disease.
Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. ... For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 5: 12; 3: 23)

» Original Sin. This doctrine says that we are born as sinners because we have the death sentence. Babies are born dead or die young, even before they have a chance to make a choice about good or evil. Their potential to choose good or bad does not appear cause this death sentence. They were born with this curse applied to them. So they were born "in sin" even though they have not sinned yet. How does sin pass from one generation to the next and from one species to another? There are three possible models.

Infection (Physical). Sin and its effects are passed like a disease.

Nature and Nurture (Mental). It is passed through our genes and our example and what we see and learn.

Separation from God (Spiritual). The separation from God creates an environment which is lacking in the ingredients that are needed for our total welfare. We could no longer physically live in the presence of God because we would die immediately. Therefore, everything is degenerating physically, mentally and spiritually because we do not have the total benefits of the presence of God. But why did the rest of the planet suffer?

Since Adam was the legal representative of this planet, the whole creation was subject to this punishment. And, because God intended to rescue him, Adam and his family still needed a place to live. So the whole earth was affected by the separation. But from the creation, God made the heavens and earth so that it could sustain life in this horrible time of separation. We have the sun and moon to give us light. It will not be so in the new earth.
» Generational Debt Bondage. At this stage, sin is like a debt inherited by our innocent children. They are debtors through no fault or choice of their own. As young debtors what they inherited are the conditions of slavery, not the guilt or responsibility. As they grow and make choices they will incur their own debt and will be responsible for their debt when they make a conscious choice to do evil. Christ was the only Child Who broke free of this bond by taking hold of the remedy by trusting and submitting to God.


Jesus Christ: The Solution

Justification . This restores our spiritual relationship with God. God removes the past offenses by forgiving us and taking the penalty. God, Himself, paid the penalty for all sin.

Glorification .This changes our physical bodies. Our bodies will change so that we can live forever in the presence of God without dying. This completes the total transformation of the sinner.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, you may be also. (John 14: 3)

God Removes Our Sin

We have a love affair with sin and are committing adultery against our Creator. Since God hates divorce, He forgives our failures and forgets the past. God restores the relationship by removing or ignoring our sins in several ways. He is either hiding Himself or hides our sins or gets someone else to remove them.

Passover teaches us that God chooses to walk by and ignore our sins and sweep them under the carpet.
He chooses to be our advocate. Like the sons of Noah, He does everything to prevent Himself from seeing our disgrace so that we are not embarrassed. Then He covers our shame with His righteousness.

"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (Jeremiah 31: 34)

Feeling Forgiven.

Depending on the magnitude and the effect of your sin, forgiveness may never come with a feeling. Often victims exacerbate this feeling by refusing to forgive and constantly reminding you of your sins. They do not forgive or forget your sins and they never let you forget.
But God forgets. So, even if you do not feel it in your heart, you must know in your mind that you have been forgiven by the one Person who really matters. And He not only forgives, He forgets our sins.
"Come now, let us reason together", says the Lord. "Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be white as snow. Though they are red like crimson, they shall be like wool". (Isaiah 1: 18).
The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in loving kindness.
... As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgression from us. (Psalm 103: 8, 12).

.

...
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PostSubject: Re: The Concept of Sin   Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:43 pm

Thanks Miro :)
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PostSubject: Re: The Concept of Sin   Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:33 pm

First there must be proof for God, and proof for Jesus actually being our savior and Proof of God actually being whom he says he is. Before that sin is a concept only defined by the Bible, and not as objective and inmaliable fact. And objective idea of sin being what we can and cannot do no matter what would require all on the planet to have knowlage of the concept in the first place, but there is plenty of cultures that have never even seem a bible. Yes there is the concept of sin right there explained perfectly, but does that make it truth? Not really.
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PostSubject: Re: The Concept of Sin   Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:46 pm

Narve

That is just it. The definition given of sin is the definition of sin from a christian perspective- perhaps even from a particular christian perspective as there are other christians who would define it slightly differently. I think it is important to keep that in mind. Each of us has our own understanding- "The Philosopher" is sharing her understanding of sin from her theoretical perspective, and so we can appreciate her views and attempt to understand them.

I cannot speak for her, but I would imagine that this IS truth as far as she is concerned. It is her truth so it is valid-- just as your truth is valid. One person's truth is not more or less valid. What is your truth with regard to the concept of sin?
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PostSubject: Re: The Concept of Sin   Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:24 am

Narvré wrote:
First there must be proof for God, and proof for Jesus actually being our savior and Proof of God actually being whom he says he is. Before that sin is a concept only defined by the Bible, and not as objective and inmaliable fact. And objective idea of sin being what we can and cannot do no matter what would require all on the planet to have knowlage of the concept in the first place, but there is plenty of cultures that have never even seem a bible. Yes there is the concept of sin right there explained perfectly, but does that make it truth? Not really.

All The universe witness that there is a "God" , Even some Athiests accept that there is a "God"...but this "God" or "Source" or "Creator" has different features and characterestics than those described by "Religions".
Saying that a force or Energy is the source, That throw the question " Can an impersonal force be the source of objective moral values that apply to all men, at all times, in all places? "

If we want to understand Salvation, we should understand the origin of concept of "Sin" But the Problem is "Nowadays The biblical teaching of original sin is dismissed for the more palatable "original goodness."..!."

Jesus lived on earth and He was only Perfect human !..he was without a Sin. He's only one who can be saviour.
About The bible not reaching some countries, Well Almost all earth Knows "Bible" ...May be some few Countries still not know about it But at End of time , all countries will know what "Bible " is ?

it said at end of time as well as there will be battle between believers and Non believers ...which is already starting now !

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PostSubject: Re: The Concept of Sin   Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:25 am

Feather wrote:
Narve

That is just it. The definition given of sin is the definition of sin from a christian perspective- perhaps even from a particular christian perspective as there are other christians who would define it slightly differently. I think it is important to keep that in mind. Each of us has our own understanding- "The Philosopher" is sharing her understanding of sin from her theoretical perspective, and so we can appreciate her views and attempt to understand them.

I cannot speak for her, but I would imagine that this IS truth as far as she is concerned. It is her truth so it is valid-- just as your truth is valid. One person's truth is not more or less valid. What is your truth with regard to the concept of sin?

Dear Feather, This isnot particular christian perspective, This is Christian Belief and talking about other christians who will define it differently then I 'll like to know what do they define it?
It's not "My Truth" as You mentioned before , Simply because
Truth can't be divided , It's "One"....It's "Whole"......
The Truth can not be personal view but it's the Reality !


When I start to post a topic, I not want Readers to instantly believe in what I wrote...This is not what I look for...I want Readers to understand the post and read it carefully and then explaining specific points of agreement and disagreement that they have regarding it..and Not just rejecting it just because it's another view than theirs !!.....that's how we will have a good discussions !!!!

I hope Members could understand that for a better sharing way !
.

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"He who fights monsters should see to it that in the process, he does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you." - Nietzche
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PostSubject: Re: The Concept of Sin   Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:06 am

From the earliest days to the present there have been numerous differences of opinion among christians. This is widely accepted by church leaders and clearly documented in the history of the church. As a result many denominations have been formed (catholic, protestant, etc.) Even within deominations there exist doctrinal differences- some are very minimal while others quite large. I will be happy to speak with my husband (who is an 49 year old ordained christian minister with a wealth of knowledge) and provide you with particulars regarding diffierent views of sin among different christian denominations- somehow I doubt you are really interested.

I don't recall ever suggesting that your belief should be "rejected" nor did I state whether I agreed or disagreed with you at all. (Do you even know what I believe?) I said that what you said was valid and should therefore be appreciated and there should be an attempt to understand it. In other words, it should NOT be rejected. Quite different than what you seem to feel I said. Please re-read what I wrote. I think you will find that I did not ever say anything even remotely close to "reject her beliefs" or that they were "wrong" and most of what I did say was in response to Narve's comments- not yours. I'm sorry you feel as if I have attacked your beliefs- I had no intention of doing that.

I will have to disagree with you, however, on one point. I cannot accept that there is only ONE truth and YOU alone have the rights to it. Sorry, I doubt there is any hope for a "discussion" of any kind if that is going to be based on such a premise. You do not speak for all Christians- you must know that- God gives each of us the ability to speak for ourselves and all christian people are individuals with something valuable to offer. Any way- I'll happily bow out of the "discussion" as I do not wish to anger you further. Peace.
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PostSubject: Re: The Concept of Sin   Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:15 am

Well I agree There are denominations and I also admit there are differences .I don't deny that ...

The differences among (Catholic and Protestant for example ) Concerning "The Concept of Sin" and its "Origins" .

In summary , we can put some main Differences in the following points:

1) Distinction between classes of sinful acts.
2) The way of Confessions.
3) The Need of doing good deeds after being saved.

The Protestant position concentrates upon what we might term the ontological facet of sin, that sin is inextricably part of human beings. This is in fact also present in the Catholic position, in the idea of "original sin", where it is understood in terms of "natural law", as almost part of the genetic legacy of mankind. In this respect, both agree with Romans 3:23: "...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.".

This proves that Both of them admit the "Origin of Sin" .
If you observed my post was not discussing "what are sinful acts " neither "what are the ways of confessions".....My Topic is about "Origin of Sin" and That all humans have sinned !!


Besides If any Denomination which not believe in Human Sinful Nature and The need for a Salvation ...Then how it will be called a "Chrisitian Denomination" ??!!!

Salvation is not membership in a religious body or denomination. Rather, it is a trusting relationship in the one who died for your sins.

Feather wrote:


I will have to disagree with you, however, on one point. I cannot accept that there is only ONE truth and YOU alone have the rights to it. Sorry, I doubt there is any hope for a "discussion" of any kind if that is going to be based on such a premise. You do not speak for all Christians- you must know that- God gives each of us the ability to speak for ourselves and all christian people are individuals with something valuable to offer. Any way- I'll happily bow out of the "discussion" as I do not wish to anger you further. Peace.

Well..In Fact There is only one Truth and I don't ever said in my previous posts that i'm only one who have the right to it !!..it's not me..It's Jesus:

"I am the way, the truth, the life, and no one goes to the Father but through Me." John 14:6

And I emphasis that I not have the honour to speak for all christains..beacuse Jesus himself reveals "he's god" in bible

Jesus told the Jews: "I and the Father are one.'

And I didn't want to offend you in my previous post but if we just talk in details way specifying our discussions that will be great !.
.

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"He who fights monsters should see to it that in the process, he does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you." - Nietzche


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PostSubject: Re: The Concept of Sin   Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:43 am

I do understand why you posted this topic, and I did read it carefully and thoroughly, the problem is, that if I look through all the logic and reason made within the first post, Behind it all I find no reason for me to accept them, as there is no proof for that God and/or son of God. Just because there are plenty of different versions of a God, doesn't mean they all have the same moral structure, that they're who they say they are, or that they're not just messing with us meer mortals for amusment, or that they're even there.
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PostSubject: Re: The Concept of Sin   Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:56 am

Navre ,

You didn't answer my question "" Can an impersonal force be the source of objective moral values that apply to all men, at all times, in all places? "

.

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