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PostSubject: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:24 am

this is a response to dalinians post in the religion vs spirituality topic....


People like Omraam Mikhael Aivanhov and JZ knight have predicted a while back that a new consciousness is coming to earth and I think this is related to 2012 if you study that you know many different people in the past have predicted December 21, 2012 to be a special date and many think this will be the end of the world but I believe it will be an end of an age and the start of a golden age of enlightenment. And this shift in consciousness in the masses is evident where more and more people are becoming spiritual; I’ll go to a high school party and instead of talking about gossip these teenagers are drinking beer talking about spirituality lol.

It has been proven that we have past lives. When people go under hypnosis where they can unlock the subconscious, the hypnotist would ask the patient about a past life including the date the name where the person lived and then they would do a background check and find that everything that patient said was true.

Sorry that im “attacking” Christianity I tend to do that lol. Spirituality is built on real experiences much more significant than a book. People have left their body and visited the spirit world where they can talk to people that have already went through the dying process who knows more these higher intelligent beings or a book of fairy tales.

What is more important in the Christian eyes to accept jesus as the one and true savior or to be Christ-like?
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PostSubject: Re: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:07 pm

Matt, I have a couple of observations and questions. Firstly as to the 2012 "thing" you might be surprised that this concept is predicted in the Bible, not a date, but certainly the global awakening in Christianity and anti Christian religions.

You state that past lives are a proven fact.....really? Shocked

Please direct me to a double blind test of this. My understanding is that when a subject is "read" by two different hypnotists that there has never been an example of the same "past life" coming to the fore.

I don't have an issue with people being critical of Christianity, with the poor example of many Christians it is easy for non Christians to miss the point that we accept that we are sinners and fail to live up to the example of Jesus, Christianity is NOT just a book, it is truly a deep, personal spiritual journey with many ups and downs.

And for the record I had an experience where I lost so much blood from a motorbike crash (I was more than an hour from a hospital) that I was considered "dead", this experience reinforced my faith in God.
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PostSubject: Re: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:48 am


The reason why when two hypnotist hypnotize a person and they get different past lives is because we have many past lives and proof that past lives exist can been seen at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EWwzFwUOxA&feature=related

and about your accident did you have one of those famous "near death experiences" where you visit the other side because ive very interested in peoples "near death experiences"
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PostSubject: Re: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:41 am

Matt wrote:

The reason why when two hypnotist hypnotize a person and they get different past lives is because we have many past lives and proof that past lives exist can been seen at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EWwzFwUOxA&feature=related

and about your accident did you have one of those famous "near death experiences" where you visit the other side because ive very interested in peoples "near death experiences"


**is the reason to why you are so interested towards those who have 'near death' experiences, and wonder what theyve 'seen' is because you are curious to know what lies beyond this life? Im glad that you want to know the life after death, and are somewhat worried about what is to come when you die. Brother, make sure your right, for itll suck if you arent. Remember there are many empty deciets out there, that will only pull you farther away from the truth.

Now about what is more important between being like Christ, and accepting Him as our Lord and Savior:

They are practically back to back on the same coin. There is no difference, though there is somewhat of a difference in what must be done first. We must truly SEE that Jesus Christ IS our Lord, and IS our one and only Savior. We must take that into consideration. By doing that we must obey Him, and what He ordered for us to do when He was here. We must finally realize that we ALL ARE sinners against God, and that Jesus took our punishment. SO....He basically bought us AGAIN, and that we belong to Him. We are the creation owned by the Creator. He died so that we can be washed from our sin, our trespasses, and crimes. He paid our fines, so we must follow His straight and narrow path. Now once weve have died for Him, hating sin, disgusted of our grave clothes, He must accept us, so that we can be saved. We must follow Him by denying ourselves, taking up our cross, and truly begin to follow His path.


!!carefully read this for I have explained what you have questioned!!
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PostSubject: Re: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:07 pm

I am interested in near-death experiences because I believe near-death experiences are the greatest way in finding the truth about life after death, God, and all of the big questions because it is based on experiences. Christianity is based on only one book written thousands of years ago not by Jesus or his immediate followers but of a friend of a friend and the first bibles weren’t written till 313 a long time after Jesus’ death, so you must admit there’s a chance that there could of been some problems along the way. Think of it as history what would be a better way to know about history reading it in some textbook or actually living in the time. This is the same way. What is better way in knowing the truth about life after death reading about it in a book written thousands of years ago or actually going through the experience of dying. And I am not worried one bit about what will happen to me after death and I have no fear in death which a lot of people do. And when you say there are many empty deities out there I’m not sure I agree with you because it seems that you can make a connection with a lot of beliefs about life and life after death. Spirituality seems to fit well with buddhism, taoism, quantum physics, people who have astral projected, people who have had near death experiences, medium and channelers who can contact the spirit world. All of these deities seem to be in consensus about a lot of the big questions.

I really have a hard time accepting that we are all sinners against god, and the quote “[b]We must follow Him by denying ourselves” just shows that we are looked at in the eyes of Christians to be worthless, second class beings.

If someone lived their life as Jesus would through peace and love, helping out the poor, treating others how you would like to be treated and being service to others but wasn’t a Christian he’s going to hell forever. But a person who has rape, killed, and committed horrible deeds but then sincerely ask for forgiveness and accepts Jesus as his god gets a free pass to heaven. This doesn’t seem like the best possible way this universe could have been created. I think we all agree that God is perfect wisdom and perfect love but this type of heaven/hell scenario, living only one life and the most important thing in a humans life should be worshipping Jesus as god seems like a horrible construction of how the universe works that’s why I don’t buy it. I think God in his perfect wisdom and perfect love would be able to create a universe system much better than the one the Christians believe he did. The Christian view seems like a man made universe with god having man made qualities, the universe I believe in is more of the making of an omnipotent God.
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PostSubject: Re: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:55 pm

Matt wrote:
I am interested in near-death experiences because I believe near-death experiences are the greatest way in finding the truth about life after death, God, and all of the big questions because it is based on experiences. Christianity is based on only one book written thousands of years ago not by Jesus or his immediate followers but of a friend of a friend and the first bibles weren’t written till 313 a long time after Jesus’ death, so you must admit there’s a chance that there could of been some problems along the way.

** Remember, one piece now, containing 66 different books, by 40 different authors, in different areas, during different times, yet clicking perfectly together. God predestined EVERYTHING that He created. He is what sustains the world, we are nothing, nor would ever of existed without Him. LOL! God wouldnt let a simple creation of His mess with His word! The bible is written by God through man, we have the bible so that we know we are saved. YES, the bible is indeed PERFECT. What place does the mold have to be able to question the molder?

Think of it as history what would be a better way to know about history reading it in some textbook or actually living in the time. This is the same way. What is better way in knowing the truth about life after death reading about it in a book written thousands of years ago or actually going through the experience of dying.

**did you see what you had just stated. Youd rather believe in ONES 'experience' than MANY peoples experiences? Yet, a mans word rather than God's word. Who is holiness and perfect? You know, its also a very good thing that the bible is a history book, for if it were science...it would always change!

And I am not worried one bit about what will happen to me after death and I have no fear in death which a lot of people do.

**though i worry about where others will end up when they die, Jesus defeated death, and gives us life. We shouldnt be scared of death, though it is a scary situation. To die is gain, for we have the Lord to be with for eternity.

And when you say there are many empty deities out there I’m not sure I agree with you because it seems that you can make a connection with a lot of beliefs about life and life after death. Spirituality seems to fit well with buddhism, taoism, quantum physics, people who have astral projected, people who have had near death experiences, medium and channelers who can contact the spirit world. All of these deities seem to be in consensus about a lot of the big questions
.



**unfortunately yes, there are many deceivers and distractions in the world though that doesnt change the fact of the matter...there still is THE truth out there. For Jesus said that He is the way, the truth, and the life... There are not multiple roads leading to the way, there is but one.

I really have a hard time accepting that we are all sinners against god, and the quote “[b]We must follow Him by denying ourselves” just shows that we are looked at in the eyes of Christians to be worthless, second class beings.

**For He died for us so that we may be saved, we should follow the LIFE He has for us. Of course we are not more important than God himself, ha, Hes the Creator, He gave us ALL OF THIS. We are His clay, and He is the potter. We do what ever He intended us to do. We have no place to ask why, or to order. We are nothing without the Creator. Though that doesnt mean we are not precious nor loved by Him. For why would He die for us??? If we murder one of His blood, we have hell to face, a fine to pay.

If someone lived their life as Jesus would through peace and love, helping out the poor, treating others how you would like to be treated and being service to others but wasn’t a Christian he’s going to hell forever. But a person who has rape, killed, and committed horrible deeds but then sincerely ask for forgiveness and accepts Jesus as his god gets a free pass to heaven. This doesn’t seem like the best possible way this universe could have been created.

**
It is not if one is christian(though i hate to use the words religion and christianity) it is if one is washed from all his/her trespasses. The fine was payed, but we must repent and put our faith in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. For He is the one who is ABLE to wash our sins away, and He is the one that we must put our trust and faith in. Pray for forgivness, hate our old ways of lawlessness, desiring new and clean desires, we must be saved and accepted by the Lord.

I think we all agree that God is perfect wisdom and perfect love but this type of heaven/hell scenario, living only one life and the most important thing in a humans life should be worshipping Jesus as god seems like a horrible construction of how the universe works that’s why I don’t buy it. I think God in his perfect wisdom and perfect love would be able to create a universe system much better than the one the Christians believe he did. The Christian view seems like a man made universe with god having man made qualities, the universe I believe in is more of the making of an omnipotent God.

**okay, im kind of confused. I thought that you didnt believe in God? Hmm, yet you dont believe in the bible? So YOUR god had absolutely nothing for us to see, nothing for us to be guided by, no type of 'thing' to let us KNOW that he is real? Hmm?
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PostSubject: Re: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:01 pm

i do believe in God but not the christian God. The christian God actually sounds like the devil "obey me and my son or your going to suffer in hell forever." "Admit that you are not worthy of my presense, admit that you are wicked sinners or i will send you to hell". I believe in a God that has unconditional love for everyone. I believe in a God that would never create a hell or send his children there forever. I believe in a God who wants to see everyone come to the light and will always give people chances to learn from their mistakes. I believe in a God that accepts all religions. I believe God sent Jesus here to teach us the way to live through peace and love. I know that the "scriptures" say a different thing but only the sciptures say a different thing and just because the bible says its the word of God doesn't mean its true.

And it not just one near death experience there has been thousands of them with them all relatively the same. They all see this light which presents them with love unimanginable to us and they all say that this light is without judgement.

You can follow the scriptures all you want but im telling you once you die you will realize your ignorance
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PostSubject: Re: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:02 am

Matt wrote:
i do believe in God but not the christian God. The christian God actually sounds like the devil "obey me and my son or your going to suffer in hell forever." "Admit that you are not worthy of my presense, admit that you are wicked sinners or i will send you to hell".

**so, you mean that you want your god to be unjust, corrupt, and lawless? You would love to know that a person like hitler is dead, and there is NO punishment for him?? Seems like an immoral god to me. A judge that just lets criminals go. Yet a god that accepts other beliefs, even the ones that dont give ANY credibility to him for what hes given? Placing him in a low and far place. One that doesnt care for what you do, since he does not love you, nor jealous, and protective over you. One that DIED FOR YOU! HA! Though he is just a figment of your imagination, im glad we have God so perfect and glorious. For I would never want a god like the one you claim.

I believe in a God that has unconditional love for everyone. I believe in a God that would never create a hell or send his children there forever. I believe in a God who wants to see everyone come to the light and will always give people chances to learn from their mistakes. I believe in a God that accepts all religions. I believe God sent Jesus here to teach us the way to live through peace and love. I know that the "scriptures" say a different thing but only the sciptures say a different thing and just because the bible says its the word of God doesn't mean its true.

**You see, like many, you dont truly understand the attributes of God. Remember, He is ALL holy. He IS goodness. He is all just. He is all loving. COMPLETE. Its hard to understand that , since we ourselves have never encountered such a being. THATS WHY HES GOD! No one person limited to time, space, matter, and sin, think like One who isnt. God loves us so much that He gave His only Son so that we may be saved. He had to be just, meaning Someone had to take the punishment for our fine. But if we dont have faith and repent from sin and trust the Savior, then our fines will not be washed. He needs to serve justice RIGHTLY for He wouldnt be God if He didnt.

And it not just one near death experience there has been thousands of them with them all relatively the same. They all see this light which presents them with love unimanginable to us and they all say that this light is without judgement.

**its like one person hearing ones story, having an experience LIKE the other, than claiming what hes heard. Then again, If in fact they had almost died, then that doesnt mean that they DID die. THen again, if the person has been saved, then IF they would of NEARLY died, then there would be NO judgment. Though NO ONE CAN REALLY KNOW IF WHAT THAT PERSON HAS CLAIMED TO BE TRUE OR FALSE.

You can follow the scriptures all you want but im telling you once you die you will realize your ignorance

**You mean, "i can read God's words, and know His promises all i want, and then when ill die, i will see(thankfully) how ignorant i was against false doctrines." well, brother, its not my place to change one. Though i believe we are all predestined, and having a purpose for our existence. Hes got the whole world in His hands. I hope that you find The Way. God bless brother.
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PostSubject: Re: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:04 am

I agree that a person like hitler deserves punishment but I’m saying that his punishment isn’t going to be eternity in hell. And only an egotistical god would worry so much about whether we worship him and give him credit.

About the near death experiences some were actually declared dead by the doctors for some time and then come back.

So let me see if I get this straight about the way you think the universe is constructed. God created people evil and sinful by nature and the whole point of our lives on earth is to worship Jesus as our savior because God sent Jesus his only son (I thought we were all his children)to earth to be killed by us so that this murder would wipe the slate clean. And the people who accept Jesus as the savior get to go to heaven doing god knows what and the people who don’t go to hell forever. We only live one life including the babies who die instantly after birth, including the people who were born into poverty in Africa living the crappiest lives imaginable a lot of them dying as children, that’s the only life they get. And I’m not sure what happened to those people who lived before Jesus maybe you can explain that but with the rest of it is this how the universe works I know you can water it down but in general sense relatively this is what you believe right.
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PostSubject: Re: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:16 am

Matt wrote:
I agree that a person like hitler deserves punishment but I’m saying that his punishment isn’t going to be eternity in hell. And only an egotistical god would worry so much about whether we worship him and give him credit.

**so by isnt, you mean shouldnt. I think he should, and i believe it will be done. The law broken against and all powerful, all holy, all just, all loving, Judge is THE highest One a person can commit a crime against. Since we are the mold, the molder can do what ever he wants. Since we are from His hand, He is the highest authority. King of all kings, Lord of all lords. Remember, God is above all. Meaning that we belong to Him, for we are nothing without Him. If we rebel against Him, like we all have, then He should be pissed and place His wrath upon us. We are given a life, yet not giving Him NEARLY what He should recieve in respect and loyalty.

About the near death experiences some were actually declared dead by the doctors for some time and then come back.

**yes, physically that person did die, though he didnt leave this place.

So let me see if I get this straight about the way you think the universe is constructed. God created people evil and sinful by nature and the whole point of our lives on earth is to worship Jesus as our savior because God sent Jesus his only son (I thought we were all his children)to earth to be killed by us so that this murder would wipe the slate clean. And the people who accept Jesus as the savior get to go to heaven doing god knows what and the people who don’t go to hell forever. We only live one life including the babies who die instantly after birth, including the people who were born into poverty in Africa living the crappiest lives imaginable a lot of them dying as children, that’s the only life they get. And I’m not sure what happened to those people who lived before Jesus maybe you can explain that but with the rest of it is this how the universe works I know you can water it down but in general sense relatively this is what you believe right.

**We are here to see and worship His glory. Might not seem applicable to you, but who are you to decide? Yet all our iniquities have all been washed, and nailed to the cross. 'and you being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses. having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was
against us, which was contrary to us. and He has taken it our of the
way, having nailed it to the cross'(colossians2:13-15) It seems very blunt, what the bible contains, though sometimes it should be. Our eternity depends on what we know and trust. Though THIS is not the only life we live, for there is INDEED eternity to come. Why would we even want to return to a life like this, vulnerable to evil? Jesus gives us life! We will be in an astronomically better place. We will be with Him!
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PostSubject: Re: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:32 am

But a person who has had a near death experience has indeed left this place as does a person who goes through astral projection and i have attempted astral projection so i know its not a bunch of bull just read their experiences.

Do you honestly believe that god gets pissed off?

And you didn’t answer my question as to what happens to those who lived before Jesus’ time?
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PostSubject: Re: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:58 am

Matt wrote:
But a person who has had a near death experience has indeed left this place as does a person who goes through astral projection and i have attempted astral projection so i know its not a bunch of bull just read their experiences.

**astral projection has not been proven to the satisfaction of mainstream science. They are many cases of flying, or public nakedness, etc. that have been experienced through this projection. Though you need many peer reviews and much scientifical evidence to prove such an encounter is in fact real, or just an out of reality dream. Yet, ive had an experience that was indeed encountered before, remembering that it was from a recent dream. For sure it was truly dejavu. Yet, it was in THIS reality. Nothing to do with what truly is to come once our flesh dies.

Do you honestly believe that god gets pissed off?

**well, i believe that some things we do dont make Him the happiest of all times.

And you didn’t answer my question as to what happens to those who lived before Jesus’ time?

**though i used to think to myself sometimes, "what happened to those who were before the cross?" Well, I know that we have been cleaned of ALL iniquities. Jesus' blood shed on the cross was a legal transaction for our fines to be paid, past and present to ALL. I know that salvation is given to all, but then again i dont have all the answers to EVERYTHING.LOL
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PostSubject: Re: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:04 pm

if near death experiences and astral projections are a bunch of bull than how come people come back predicting things that will happen in the future, stuff they were told or saw while in the spirit world. a great example is Edgar Cayce who practiced astral projection

in 1924 cayce predicted the stock-market crash in 1929
in 1934 cayce predicted the rise and fall of hitler
in 1932 cayce predicted ww2
in 1932 cayce predicted the rebirth of Israel
cayce predicted the collapse of the soviet union

in 1975 dannion brinkley had a near death experience and predicted:

the presidency of ronald reagan
turmoil in the middle east
collpase of the soviet union
the existence of chemical weapons in the middle east
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PostSubject: Re: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:15 pm

Matt wrote:
if near death experiences and astral projections are a bunch of bull than how come people come back predicting things that will happen in the future, stuff they were told or saw while in the spirit world. a great example is Edgar Cayce who practiced astral projection

in 1924 cayce predicted the stock-market crash in 1929
in 1934 cayce predicted the rise and fall of hitler
in 1932 cayce predicted ww2
in 1932 cayce predicted the rebirth of Israel
cayce predicted the collapse of the soviet union

in 1975 dannion brinkley had a near death experience and predicted:

the presidency of ronald reagan
turmoil in the middle east
collpase of the soviet union
the existence of chemical weapons in the middle east


**im not saying that these 'experiences' in general are all and completely fake. Though I am trying to point out why not to believe in things....like that. This is why;

PLEASE, JUST READ THESE, AND THAT IS IT.

Jeremiah 14:14

And the LORD said to me, “The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart"
Jeremiah 5:31
The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule by their own power; And My people love to have it so. But what will you do in the end?
Lamentations 2:14
Your prophets have seen for you False and deceptive visions; They have not uncovered your iniquity, To bring back your captives, But have envisioned for you false prophecies and delusions.
Ezekiel 22:28
Her prophets plastered them with untempered mortar, seeing false visions, and divining lies for them, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD,’ when the LORD had not spoken
Matthew 7:15
[ You Will Know Them by Their Fruits ] “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Matthew 24:11
Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many
Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect
2 Peter 2:1
[ Destructive Doctrines ] But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false
teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies,
even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift
destruction.
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Though I know that you have a hard time believing the bible, and what it contains. But hey, how one believe that 6x6 is 36, if one does not believe in the basic principles of mathematics?
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PostSubject: Re: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:03 pm

just because old book says that everything besides it is corrupt and misleading doesn't mean i should ignore the overwheming evidence that points to a different truth. Just see where im coming from. I was once a christian believing in the heaven and hell story told to me by my parents who pointed to the bible for their reference. But when christians, athiest, buddhist, muslims, and others are talking about their profound experience that deeply changed the way they view the world and the way they live in it and all of them go through the same experience we must listen. All people who have gone through either a out-of-body experience or near-death all talk about being outside of there body viewing it in either lying down sittin or w.e and all talk about a silver cord that connets them to their body no matter where they go. And all near-death experiencers talk about being shown their whole life up to this point being in every moment remembering what you were feeling and thinkin. And than some of these people are coming back able to sucessfully predict the future. And all of them come back a different person. A better person. The experience is so profound that it made them change the way they live their life, and they begin to live their life in a more peaceful loving manner. Seeing everybody as equals seeing the love in all things and human beings.

I know the bible goes against this but the bible goes up against everything that isn't the bible. And thats all they have one book. Spirtuality has dozens and hundreds of experiences that fit well with other religions and other ideas that has been around longer than the bible.
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PostSubject: Re: Religion vs Spirituality Debate   Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:56 am

Guest wrote:
just because old book says that everything besides it is corrupt and misleading doesn't mean i should ignore the overwheming evidence that points to a different truth. Just see where im coming from. I was once a christian believing in the heaven and hell story told to me by my parents who pointed to the bible for their reference. But when christians, athiest, buddhist, muslims, and others are talking about their profound experience that deeply changed the way they view the world and the way they live in it and all of them go through the same experience we must listen. All people who have gone through either a out-of-body experience or near-death all talk about being outside of there body viewing it in either lying down sittin or w.e and all talk about a silver cord that connets them to their body no matter where they go. And all near-death experiencers talk about being shown their whole life up to this point being in every moment remembering what you were feeling and thinkin. And than some of these people are coming back able to sucessfully predict the future. And all of them come back a different person. A better person. The experience is so profound that it made them change the way they live their life, and they begin to live their life in a more peaceful loving manner. Seeing everybody as equals seeing the love in all things and human beings.

I know the bible goes against this but the bible goes up against everything that isn't the bible. And thats all they have one book. Spirtuality has dozens and hundreds of experiences that fit well with other religions and other ideas that has been around longer than the bible.

**uh, im sorry to say this but, you were never a christian. Nobody is a christian just by name. Nor does a christian ever QUiT being a follower of the Lord. lol. though about the whole astral stuff, its not important, nor does it tell you the truth about life after DEATH.
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